Bill Moyers Journal : WETA : July 3, 2009 9:00pm-10:00pm EDT : Free Borrow & Streaming : Internet Archive (2025)

>> moyers: this we on the journal,he crisis in capitalism-- it's nojust about money. >> oh, so this is onof the big debateof the course. i ve sin. it is not out of date. this fancial crisis should show us that it is in fashn. >> this is a society that ha stoked and celebrated grd, virtually to theoint of self- deruction. >> you can't have a prospety gospel anymorethe prosperity's ne. and the market is longer a

model,t all. so where dwe go? >> moyers:heologians on amica's spiritual hunger. and a second look at tse who hunger, lirally, for their ily bread. stay ted. captioning sponsored by public affairs telision

>> moyer welcome to the urnal. ne months have passed since wall street collapsed arounds, costing millio their homes, jo and pensions. you' seen and heard many people on this broadcast sak tohe causes of the crisis and its fallout. economists, histians, journalists, titans wall street-- each s addressed one aspect or another of t relationship betwe capitalism and mocracy. now its ti for some different voices from a different perspective; time r the gospel trut >> who cares? i'm trying to li a life of love andustice before i die. i dot care what they call that. >> moyers:very wednesday night for 13 weeksver this past spng and winter... >> i just nted to thank you personally. >> mers: ... these students at union thlogical seminary here in new yk heard some very stng opinions from three very charismatic teache. >> meanwhile, the u.s. is no facing up to the crisis pitalism, because our oligarchhas immense political and economic power, so our recovery begins bailing out walltreet... >> mers: gary dorrien's passion is economic democry.

it's athe core of his writing and teaching at union as the reinhold niebuhr prossor of social ethics, named for perps the most infential american eologian of the last century a past president of e american theolocal society, dorrien h published over aozen books, including a trily on "the makingf american liberal theology": "soul in sociy," "the word as true my," and thisost recent, "social ethics in the making." rrien's been dubbed "the mos rigorous theologal historian of o time." >> crisis-- what ds it mean today? well, one, it'important to see crisis, as we've seen ti and again, as ll of as much threat as it is promise. >> moyer when serene jones was inaugurated president ofnion last november, she bece the first woman to head the senary in its 172-year-olhistory. and i'm excited because, tonight, my fatherets to hear me tching. >> moyers: a scholarrom a familyf scholars, jones came to union after 17 years the faculty of yale university.. >> my father was president. i grew up in theouse of a

prident. >> moyers: ... where shelso ld appointments at the law school and the deptment of african erican studies. >> do you believe -- our last clas though? >> moyer it was there that she once studied under this n. >>i, dear sister president. >> moyers: cornel west. >>t's not just a language or a rhetoric; it the fundamental way of being in thworld. and so when wealk about this economic crisis, is not as if we need some new visn. yes... >> moyers: phisopher, ofessor, preacher-- cornel west is one of the most prominent blic provocateurs in america. >> it's a estion of what kind ofuman being do you want to be, given your me from your mother's womb tohe tomb. whatind of virtues and values will you try to enact your life? and you say, oh, bther west, th sounds like preaching and homiletics. no, that's not preachingnd homiletics at l.

's just a christian on fire. >> mers: west, who owns and opates what "the new york times"alled "a ferocious moral sion," leaped to public attention wi his contemporary classic, "race matte." his last is "hope on a tightrope," anhe's also oduced three cds, including one of sially conscious music called "never foet." >>ove is real, suffering is real, the killing iseal. it's as al as this table. >> moyers: cornel st teaches at pnceton university, coming weekly to new rk for this team-tching course with gary dorrien and serene jones >> i have is really impassioned nse that progssive christianity may well just simply dispear. >> moyers:hey titled their joincourse, christianity and the u. crisis-- not unusual for this semary where towering theologians like nbuhr and paul tillich oe challenged students to engage the wor. and where the young german schola dietrich bonhoeffer, was teachinghen he returned

ho to martyrdom trying to overthrow adolph hitler. ion is america's oldest nondominational seminary, known around the world for apying a progressive christian itique to politi, economics, and socialustice. welcome to the journal. >> tha you. >> thank you >> thank you >> it's nice to be he. >> moyers: so,ho presumes to spk for christianity? i an, james dobson is a christian. rick warren is a cistian. barack obama is a chstian. jeremiah wright is a chrisan. all of you are cistian. so who psumes to speak for christiaty? >> well, christianity'always had a number odifferent voices, a numb of different stams and strands, and i think we hado keep track of prophetic stnds and keep track of priestly strands. there's always been christns o are well-adjusted to greed well-adjusted to fear,ell- adjusted to gotry. there's ways been christians o are maladjusted to greed, maladjusted to bigotry, maladjusted to fear. the question is, "what kind of christian? which hato do, in the end, with what kind of human ing you choose tbe. >> there is alwa people who e speaking through... for th christianity of thdominant

voic and they can weigh in and support erything that's going in the present culture and this way and that. but who spea for the christianity that ands on the margins of siety, in places where there iso voice, often? mean, that's the really crical question of every age, because it's those voiceby which you're goingo be able to measure the true healtof a society, and whether christianity is speang. moyers: do you think mainstream americas really concned about the margins of society, as you say? >> this is an interestin moment, because think, sudden, quite a number of americans find themsves on a margin they didn't even kn existed. i think in ourife course, it's hard to find peoe who don't experience themsels in moments of brokenness and marginity. right now, the whole stem's collapsing a the margin looks like a very big space. ana christianity that speaks to those margins can be a powerful prence in that. >> moyers: gary dorrn, what is the crisis, as you s it? >> this is a socty that has stoked andelebrated greed, virtually tohe point of self-

destruction. and so, we can't just gon saying, "if we can just tch this thing up and geback to where were that things will be all right." and none of us belie that, so we also ve to talk about what was wrong with this system t begin with that ha you know, tcomes that you can't really juify morally, and that do, in fact, le to the kind of outcome that we're dealingith right now. >> think it has to do a lot withhe profound spiritual crisis, a kind of spiritl lnutrition, an emptiness of soul, a whole culture indifference that sa, in fact, that y can possess your soul byeans of possessing mmodities, of thinking someh you can conquer the wod, your rld, and end up losing your soul. these are old truths ese are old biblical truths. you can be non-christian, atheistic, agntic, and still recogne the veracity, the

truth in those formulation >> mers: what do you think is the story of ameca right now? if you h to write that story, very brief, what is the story that's unfolding, ase talk? >> it's a story about n and ace, and it's about the brokenss of human beings and our cacity to delude ourselves, all the way intthe internatiol collapse of all that we stand for, to get caht up in ctions that we write about the ways in which we should sucture our lives gether. were seeing, played out before usthat classic protestant claim that wcan be caught up in sin and not en know we are inin. >> moyers: what do you mean sin? i mean, that's a theological term that manyeople have said is outf date. >> yeah. so this is one of thbig debates of the crse. i love sin. it is not t of date. this fancial crisis should shows that it is in fashion. sin,or me, describes the fact that we e born thrown into

this world, and we are, matter how hard wery, because of the comexity of how we're put togeer, destined to make ssive mistakes. d the best we can hope for i that we're in a communy of people that continually mind that, in fact, we don't undetand everything and we are not the center of the iverse. that's sin, the inevitabilitof that. and then, on one sort of gets a hold of it, you can gin to... i think it's ctral to democrac we he checks and balances. >> moyers: checks d balances, righ >> because we knowe can go off the wrong direction in profound ways. >> that'why i'm for economic democracy,ecause i think that ecomic democracy is essentially an aempt to sort of hd down, serve as a kind of a bre on human greed and will to power, which arvirtually univerl. i'm not talking about anything that requires some nd of idealistic idea aboutuman nature or what we're cable of or t like.

my main argumentor it is the sa one that niebuhr, that reinhold niebuhr had aut democracy. you kn, the human capacity for goodness makes democracy possib, but it's precisely the human capacity for evil th kes democracy utterly necessary. there are twsort of fundamental stories ordeas about a just siety, what it coulbe, that have been erative in u.s. american story, virtually from the begiing, and that are always there. and that one is the idea of providing unrestricted liber to acquire wealth, a there's a politi that goes with that. you want to holdown government. you want to hold..even "demracy" is not really, necearily a good word in that conception. d then in the other idea, it that you wt to attain as much through a democracy asou can over society's major institutions. you can interpret virtuay every cade of u.s. american history by the way these two different rt of conceptions of wh a just society would be end

up conflictingith each other-- somemes modifying each other, sometimes anging eacother. >> moyers: are you suggestin that democracy ithe political antidoteo what serene described ashe theological ncept of original sin; that, as a society, you ha to have these checksnd balances that restrain us? >> yes, alough, of course, democracy is riddledith all ese problems as well. it isn't just a questi of, "well, whaver your problem is, yojust need more democracy." democracy-- this is another rt of niebuhrian mam-- that every gain ia social justice ruggle does open up new possibilitiefor, and even new kinds of evil. that docratic majorities can be, if they're selfish, if they're xenoobic, if they're racist, if ty're, you know, whatever, of course, c create these rt of new structures of evil tt then have to be overcome. >> but both you all uld acknledge that, i mean, ucydides understood that pow

corrupts and aolute power corrupts absolutely, tt wole soyinka understands e role of greed, selfishness, egoism narcissism. neither onof them have a tion of original sin. so we nt to make space for our seculacomrades in that regard. but it seems to me... >> moys: a lot of people reje the notion of original sin. >> right. >> moys: where do you come out on that? >> wl, i mean, it's a leap of faith. the thinis that, as a christian, we lieve, in fact, that we' made in the image of d, and therefore, there's a sancti and a dignity there, which ans we have the potential do something of... that contribes to truth, contributeto justice. at the same timewe know, we are cracked vessels,o the best we c do is love our crooked neighbors with our crook hearts, the way the great h. auden would put it, so that know that there'a difficulty, given the corrtion that is sh through who we are. i mean, chekhov, my vorite writer's aostic. right. now, he understandgreed and corruption bettethan most christn thinkers.

but he's an nostic. he'sust a quester for truth. he's trying to understd who we really are, and truth is mething that's available to chstians and non-christians, muslims and non-muslims. in the end, theris a truth, and one of tse truths is, we are prone towardorruption, misuse of power, abusef putation, and so forth and s on. that we're always already going to be adequate. as samuel becket my other dear lapsed irish ptestant atheist comrade would say: "we fail. try again. fail again. fail better." >> moyers: in tipping yourat to two non-belving writers, you remind me, ocourse, that is is a pluralistic world and... >> sure. >> moyers: . a pluralistic world and soety, american soety. in fact, a recent poll sugges that the number americans who call themselves christn has fall by about 11%. isn't presumptuous to think that the wor can be arranged accoing to christian doctrine? >> that's actually one othe

powerfulhings about what i think is the bel story of america at it's st, is the story of democracy, whh is... 's a story that allows multipleaith stories to be held within , in ways that are reectful and pulling forth the meaning-of-life qutions, and alwing them to intermingle and interact in a space at is encouraginof discussion and conflict. >> part oft has to do with trying to get beyond the lels. what wre really talking about, i think, is a certain kindf moral clity and a certain kind of mal courage, and a certain kind of genuine mol compassion. and itomes from a variety of diffent traditions, so that we don'want to get too obscure in our diourse and not really just put on the table somethg that's very sile. how deep is your love? what is thquality of your rvice to others? are you coerned about those on the margins, or do wdefine a

catastphe only when it relates to investmenbankers and wall street elites, as oppod to the precioushildren in chocolate cities? or wte children in appalachia? or red children in navo reservations? what are we gog to do? what are we willg to risk? what costs a we willing to actually undergo? you can't be christian if you're not wling to pick up your cross and, in the endbe crucified on i that's the bottom ne. the rest of itust sounding brasand tinkling symbols. how deep is your love? >> moyers: what do youean by that, because that offendsany people, as younow, non- believers whsay, "what do you, you know, e cross"... >> didn't tell them... >> moyers: "the ath of... the crucifixion," that's offensive... >> no, no. >> moyers: to a lot of peopl.. >> the crossignifies unarmed truth and unconditional lo crushed by t roman empire, embodied in the flesh a rst-century palestinian jew namejesus. so that you can be non- christian concerned with pr people. sometimes, some of t greatest defeers of our poor brothers and sisters have bn secular and pagan, and hindus li a gand, and so forth and so on.

but for me, as a chrisan, it means i'm looking athose in the prison industrial comple i'm looking for thchildren in our diladated school system, in the decrepit housing, tho who don't have health carend child care. so that tom friedmans and others, they'rlooking at the worlfrom the vantage point of the top, vy much like brother obama's economic team. they're not looking the world through thlens of poor people and working people. they gotall street elites as their buddies, their croni, intimate ties, so the vante pointhrough which they look at the world is very, vy different. christians begin with th catastrophic. >> moyers: how does th connect to wt gary talks about, economic democcy, and the failure of the whole capitalt del of the last few months? >> there's aendency to sort of play up e distinctiveness of the moment. i meanwe're just... we're in it and it's all arnd us and ople are suffering from it. >> moyers: the booand bust? >> you get an... yes, you t an economic olirchy, a financial elite that rigthe game and its

stem. and theyile up a mountain of debt and they overreh in good times. anthen the whole house comes collapsing down on everybo else. and then you end up hang to de with, you know, the mess. and if you've got anligarchy, which you always have these cases, they are alwa very good at taking care of their ow- that's what eles do. and so, e question becomes, are you ing to let them organize the recery on their terms, or e you going to break the power of the olirchy? and thenaybe get or build something better thawhat you had befo. now, whai just described is not at much different than what russia and argentina an malaysia and south kea and plen of other places have gone through. t it's different in this cas of course, because it'so much bigger. it went global almos immediately. and inur case, because we are so big, wean play by different rules than all tse other ses. and that's hpens, and that's at we're objecting to right

now, is that we'llust sort of ring along and hope for a recovery. and we'll just have e same thing thate had before. >> moyers: but, go bk for a moment. aren't you desibing the way thworld works? isn't that the way the ecomics of theorld run? >> yes. but thers a tendency, in so much othe literature... tom friedman's book, "the world flat," is st sort of a catechism on this eme, of saying, well, the potics don't reallyatter anymore. and that stes themselves don't really matter. the electronic herd has corol of the wor, but it doesn't really have control, it st does what it ds. and so theres no third way in political economy anymore. there isn't even second way, you ow. there's only one thing thasort of runs the world, and so you either get on with that progm, or you're going to be ruover. but i think you've g to recogne the change, in the contexof understanding that politics always mattered. i mean, at some states did way better than othe in regulating this systeand even believing that you nded to regulate it;

in dealingith equality and even believing that eqlity was an important goal to sve. and beyond all that, simply ok at what happed in the world in mid-september, and tn october... >> this is wherehe... >> governmt suddenly came up with trillions odollars... >> absutely. >> to hold up thisystem... >> absolely. >>hat they had built and defended to begin with.. >> why is that s because they don't look the world through the lens of po people... >> right. >> and workingeople. right. >> the questiowill be, for churches, you can't have a prosperity gospel ymore. the prospety's gone. you can't have a chamber o commerce... relion chamber of commerce iin crisis. you can't have a mart spiruality and an imperial regiosity because the empire's in trouble. it's wavering and wobbli. and thmarket is no longer a model, at all. so where do we go? transitional moment. th is a moment of the interregnum. are looking for new ways. think of all of our evangecal brothe and siste who tie

their christian ith, in part, toush. they're loing for other places because they know it w a form of idolay. and we... this is mething that's a chaenge to all of us, not ju our evangelical brothe and sisters. >> you a how you would define this crisis? think it's a crisis of value we have misplad, in deep ways, the ler that we use to measure what mattersost in life. and it h become complete exhausted byonetary value. t it's sort of the simple story of how do we thinkbout this? because i' got in front of me a ass full of people who are sittg in a union classroom to become a minister. anso what do we tell people who are going to go out,any of them a going to work in soup kitchensthey're going to be working in clinics, they're going be in churches that, you know, n't have 3,000 people in them, t 30. how doe help them understand the crisisn such a way that thremaking of the fabric--

whh can allow our democracy to thrive-- hapns? and, again, i just keep thking it's the simple concepts. how do we get ople to rescover love? and we trulyannot find in oursves sustained resources for thinking about lov for inking about affection. >> moyers: but i't it a faasy to think that love can tame capitalism. in fact, you talk abt the religion of catastphe. e origins of your faith. and, yet, thprosperity gospel, the gosp that began in a lot of big american churches, ying that god wantsou to be rich, is spreadi like wildfire to the rest of the world. now, there's a different te on your faith. th is not about catastrophe, but about success. >> but thas part of the escapism--f they define success by how the world conceives of prosperity ther than greatness. in the biblical text, th

grtness says what? he or she is greatesamong you be your servant. there's a clash re, a very importt clash. t love is not a real small thing. love is not ju the key that unlocks the door to ultima reity. but there would be no ekend if there re not a trade union movement tt loved justice enough and loved working pple enough, so tt bosses wouldn't treat em like commodities to be marginalized. there would nobe racial... the raci justice tt we have of martin king d fannie lou hamer and rabbabraham joshua hescl, phil berrigan. the wouldn't be, without the love that u all had for justice and the lovenough for blk people, to say, "quit niggerizing thespeople. quit intimating them. quit trying to makthem so ared that they won't stand u and fight." loves a serious thing. when you love your mama, y take a bullet foher if she's treated unjustly. that's why justi is what love oks like in public. >> buthis thing about the story of le that we have the

cacity for includes within it a cognition of the harshness and the brokenss and the darkness of our live and love exis in that. it dsn't exist despite it. >> that's right. >> moyer i'm not sure you haven't confused lovwith justice. >> justice is noing but love with legs. justice is what love looks like when it takes soci form. >> moyers: and that'the trade uniomovement you talked about. >> that's what love is. >> thas the woman's movement. that's the gaynd lesbian moveme. >> you put it in policy fos. >> is the love that, that's what holds you in the ruggle, you know evenf you're not succeeding, you know. allowing you to sustain and endure. it's the energy. it propelsou into a struggle in which you mightot be succeeding >> moyers: y remind me that all the of you come out of what, once upon a time, s called t social gospel moment. the movement to apply christn ethicaprinciples to society. and wasn't that response to

the first round economic collapse in the rly part of the last century? >> the is something new that started in the 1880sith the social gpel. you have a soclogical consciousness itself tha there's such a thing as soci structure. and so, ll, if there's such a thing social structure, then now the's something that's just different. that mes the equation dierent-- that it's not just a questionf bringing people to jesus who will then transfm society. but rather salvation itselhas to be conceid, not just in persal, but social-structural terms. so, with the social gosp movement in the 18s, you do, for the first time, see eaching and theology in whic christian salvation being talked about as cluding making movents toward the change of cial structures themselves i the diction of something that's now being callesocial justice. >> there's a sen of... >> because even the te "social juice" is only coined during that versame period. >> moyers: but the social go

tradition was, iitself, overwhelmed by the merialism of the lt part of the 20th century and the turbo- capitalism that you re talking abt enshrined in thomas freidman's icon. i an, the social gospel was not fficient to sustain itself against the power of econocs and, in fa, structural wealth, right? >> right. that's true. but i think we can never underestimatthe crisis of dere. that it wasn't justhat there was... it dn't have enough socialtrength or a good enough analysis. that what turbo-capilism does, is it. the biggest, sort of, r zone is interior to us, where it takes over yo desire. it makes you into a creature who wants to buyhe commodities. so you could have a great political analys. but what you're doing, on th ound every day, is you're fueling this turbo-citalism. and it in the churches that other kind of desire should have been being crafted.

that's where you c get people in their bonesnd really begin to force the questioof, "what is it that you want? at makes you happy? whatakes your life mean?" wh... you know, it's those deep queions of want. >> moys: but most people believe capitalism because they think it delivershem-- it does deliverhem-- that standard of living tt is at the art of their longings. >> but tt's also why we need to re-craft the ory of want. we neeto... and this comes back to the whole question o love. at does it mean to begin to nurture communitie anthis is why i think it's crucial for decracy to thrive, to make matter to people as much that they respectthers. that they arengaged in a collective proje together of runng this world. now, tt doesn't mean to suggest that bic economic stability is sometng that we can tu away from. but it means howe build the

whole thing upnto a house that we live in together is gng to have to be house decorated with things at are not the thgs we want right now. >> moyers: but you're lking about two fferent realities. and that's understandable. the reality of the human hea, which theology and rigion and poetry touch. but the reality of economi structur, too. we're not r from the church where onof the great articulators, one the first pioneers of the social gospe walter rauschenbusch, ld forth in hell's kitchen here in ne york for a long me. what do you think thsocial gospel would s today about the structure of the economy ait has en incarnated in wall street and the financial and banking indury? >>ell, in fact, rauschenbusch did speak to exactly thiissue that serene's bringing up. that's whye wanted to expand the cooperativsector. heaid, "we've got to create stctures in which"-- the way he would often put it is"which bad peop are forced to do good things."

that is you set up, have structures in which cooperatn isctually rewarded, where u're met... where you have t deal with other people, licitous of what they need, what they care aut and the like. that you can actuallset up reward systems that make tter society. and sometimes, he'd y you can even live out... y could be a christian without havingo retire from thworld. and so that, think these two things aually were tied gether quite closely. >> i thi, in our present moment, thou, it seems to me, the major challenge has to d with the sentimentalism, on e hand-- which is an escape fr reality, history, memo, and mortalit- and the flip side, which is cynicism, wch is just prccupation with the 11th commandmen "though shall not get caught." d just read the business pag these days. what do we see? ngster activity. scandal after scandal. stealing, stealing. embezzment, embezzlement.

that is the back. this is the afteffect of greed, indifference andear. now we... as a christian, i ow therll never be parase in space and me. there'll never be utopian human history. the questions, do we have the kind of convictioncommitment, courage and wiingness to serve to make thin better the short time that are here to pass onto our children? capitalism is tamed on when those rsons who are viimized, be they children or workers d others, love each otheand justice enough to organize and mobilize and pu capitalism into, like in the 1930s, collective bargaining rights f workers, right? or the 1960s--lack folk against amican terrorism, jim crow. they love enough. and even our etes-- our elites e not to be demonized. ites can make choices, they' not locked into category. that a connected to truth and justice. but it takes courage. >> moyers: you said the e of obama is about everyy people.

and you asked the questi: how do we unleastheir power? what's thevidence that that's ppening? >> wel i think it's a very complicated situation. because, of course, the e of obama actuly emerges with a discredited republican pty in sarray; with a mediocre mocratic party that only had the clinton maine at the center and if this charismatic, brilliant, young, black brotr can somehoget over the clinton machine, he can become president. th's why i supported him. criticly! a socratic, prophetic, orientation toward the bther, right? because he becomeshe initiator of a new age. we had to brg the age of reag to a close. the era of conservatishad to be brought to close. thank god it was. but then the question will b well, is he ing to focus on e poor and working people? will hrecycle neo-liberal elites frothe old establisent of wall street, which the economic tm is? moyers: we know the answer that. >> we know the answer to tha >> moyers: rightfter the electionyou were... >> will he recycle theame neo- impeal elites when it comes to

foreign policy? i know he's deing with tremenus power-- wall street, congress, and so forth a so on. i understand t political considations. people have the righto organize. lobbies have a righto bring por and pressure to bear. at's what american democracy about. but that's n truth. that's not the samas prophetic witnesto truth, especially as christians, you see. so that the critique lnched agnst barack obama-- be it gaza, bet darfur, be it in ethiop, be it wherever-- it has to be put forward. thats the calling of prophetic christians. well, i wouldn't even give him the out thatornel just gave h. because i think, ifact, he could st in his lane and do way bett than he has on the economy,nd also on scaling back the military pire. so, on those two things-- toe solicitous of wall street, have treatnt of the banks that's just absurdlyavorable their interests, and fusing to clearut shareholders, and refusing to get to the btom of

it. and also in his ju utter reful to really face up to the cost and extent of the milary empire that, en though he notes inhis book, "the audacity of hope," is outspending the ne 25 nations combined in the military. he says the next paragraph, and has continued on this line, at we need to expand it further. so we'veot nothing coming on sort of pullinback on that issuas well. on the other han you can't say that this has en a cautious president, overall. mean, it's quite amazing tha he is takingn virtually everything, onway or another, at the same time. so he has... there's bn a fair amnt of audacity in deciding that this is his moment. there's not going to be a beer moment to come along, yway, if he's going to do sometng about health care a number of issues-- dealing with ir, maybe make a bakthrough with cu. at he's got to put his cards on the table nownd get what he ca

>>oyers: you said, after the election, "we want to giveim time. we want to ge him room." and my question to you i how much room and w much time? >> well, the first thinge want to do, we nt to protect him, and he and h precious family. second thing we nt to do, we wanto make sure all the iticism is fair, so it's not ad hominims, 's not personal. 's not racist. it not whatever, you see. at the same timehe is subject to all theame requirements of truth and justice any other president, any color so my criticism out ofove for, not just the peoe, but barack oba himself. how my cticism help him? give him strength? he plans to berogressive lincol fi. that's difcult. he will beelped by more progressive frederick douglasses. that's what i asre to... moyers: do you see the... >>o help him push him in a progressive direction. >> mers: do you hear those voic coming from his left? we know about em from the right-- fox news, ru limbaugh. we all know them. >> wel the voices are there! pa krugman and sylvia ann wlett and ben barber and

william greideand ron walters. the voices are there. he's not yet lisning. that's t difference. ncoln listened to douglass, garrison. brothebarack obama, he is listening too mu to summers, thurman, geiner. we can go right wn the neoliberalist. that's dangerous if heants to be a proessive president. >> moyers: whyo you think that ? i think one of the reasons thatt happens is that we are living in a very overwhelmg time. and it always going to be the ca that a conservative, familiar, neoliberal anda sounds safer. because it's what we know. but the truth of the matteis what we ow is what got us in trouble in the first place. so is one of those moments that everybody faces in eir own life. we happen to be facing it structurally right n. if everything collses, what do we d the midst of that fear, do grasp for at's most familiar? that'shat's happening. but the very tng you're grasping for is the thing at got you the in the first ple. >> absolutely.

>> it takes a little openi of spirit andn opening of intellect and coure. 's courage. absolutely. theris a reluctance of barack obama to steinto the age of barack obama. we must help himo that out of love, not just for him, bufor poor pple and working people. that'shen the age of obama becomes the age of what sl stone calls "everyday pele." >> the's also just the litical angle. i an, it's almost too obvious to say, and yet ere it is, that he does tend to takfor grantehis base. and he's aays looking to move out from it. sohe's not terribly worried whether progresse christians are gointo support him. because they'vbeen there from the very binning. >> w does he take the base for granted, do you thin >> oh, well,uch of the base is just too nice and iet and lling to roll over for him. >> it's a ment of euphoria, which is bliing. but when we become more cantankero, vociferous, noisy, in love, based on...ocus on the ast of these, he's going to have to take useriously.

and we justell the president we are comin >> moyers: so i wanto ask the three you from your perspectives: is it conceivable to youhat, as we may be ming into a post- racialociety, we may be moving into a post-christian ciety? >> i love that term, actuall because chriianity could well be its best when it gets completely undon and christiansho are committed torophetic presence in the world should b in one sense, thrill by the possibility of it beingost-christian. becausit may mean we're coming to the end of sometructures of regiosity that were deadly. u know, in the protestant reformation,hey were calling it the e of christendom, and what emerged on e other side of it was a completelyew form. >> moyer are you saying that there's a...ou sense a hope, now, for a neweformation? >> oh. it's a fanstic moment to be standing at a minary. that's one of the reasonwhy i decided, aft 17 years at yale, to come to nework and be at the helm of this littlschool.

it has a gat legacy, but it's not a huge mega-university it's because-- a you can feel it in new york so lpably-- but what is ppening globally: change in formof technology, the breakdown d reconfiguratioof the nation ste, forms of economic interaction thatave never before beeimagined. and a crisis of knowledge ana cris of value parallel, in really profod ways, what was happening 50years ago when this little guy named john calvin got run o of paris because he was asking the secular questis. they ran him o of paris and he ends uin geneva, and in the midst of all of at, begins to lien to what's happening in europe. that the challenge right now, is for us to listen what's happening glally and to be ableo track the emergent forms of spirit,he emergent forms of

organizations. the forms of love and the fos of hope th people are finding on the ground the midst of these changes, a that is going to be sort of the spiritlity that's comin and it'soming fast. >> moyers: but chael the good calvin for a momen serene, who listened, as you sd, and heard the rustli sounds of spring sprigs in europe. what are you seeg and hearing right now that gives you se sense of encourament, despite the fact that everythinghat's tied down coming loose? >> what i sein my students is powerful. it is a nse that, in the cruming of all of this, what is being unleasheds an intense see of the embodied character of faith. call ipentecostal. you can seit in my students now. at does it mean to call them pentecostal? it's not the tradition things we thinkf. t these are students who are coming off t set of "american

idol", or th've been on a warship outsidof iraq, or they've been scking shelves in texas, and they're cing to union commitd to social juste. and open to the power of the spirit in physical ways th ve them this kind of zealousness thatfor a large swath ofime, the liberal left lost. they're doing this as whole new generation forhom tactility, thinking abouthe way the bodyives in the world. it's actually exciting to me because i think, in their n ves, we're seeing the contestati of the power of the marketo configure desire. beuse they don't want those market desires in e same way my genation did. they're critical of them. th're coming up with new forms of music. and they're very cmitted to a sense of passi in it. to use a very sclarly term-- i thk we need to use it more ten: i think it's a crisis o metaphysics.

ese students are asking, and eir liberal professors, quesons about, you know, "do you really believe that go exists?" now, the liberal church sort of, you know, wantinto say, "well, it mit be a myth. it might be a syol. we c say this about it. we can back away." these studentsre saying, "i'm not going get out there on the front line, ani'm not going to reconfire my interior world to desire different things, if this isn't real." they want somethinreal that is an aernative. >>ertainly, from our expeence of the course, this is an extraordinary geration. i mean, it's. they are connected. they care. they're lookg for... they're always sort of obsessing aut what's real. i mean, they've got rar for at's unreal, for what is jus merely abstrt or it doesn't reallypeak to their condition, what isn't going to ma a difference. what kind of learning esn't

make any dference at all. ey've got radar for that. but they'rvery hungry for what is gng to make a difference. d how it is that they can li out their faith this world thate're creating. >> they're not afraiof hard thinking but they also wa... they want beauty-- the beauty of t thought to ipire. this is one of the reasons why these new formthat we're talking about fi black forms and afro-american rms so tractive. >> absolutely. >> because here you got is leaven in this larger ameran loaf been sitting herell this time. these ung white brothers and sisters, they want to get in hip hop. they want to be able to move their bodies. they want to he an orality at is smooth like jay-z. there is somhing about the black expeence in america, at its best. we kw we got black gangsters like anybodylse. at its bt, that speaks to these kinds ofssues. yove got martin as the best, in many wa, in the political sphere. you got louis artrong, sarah vaugha john coltrane, aretha franklin--o much of the best

in the cultural sphere. now, the young folk arhungry for it. wel see. we're in aew transition. >> and what you've donso well, in this class,s remind us again anagain that space of the real is not a christnity that's nic it's a christianity in whi there's love, but mixeinto it is the hshness of this. i mean, oustudents want that. >> it's the funk. it's the funk. 's the funk of life. it is. >> that's what blackife is about. but, in thend, that's what man life is about. how funky is your fah. >> moyers:erene jones, gary dorrien, cornewest-- i've enjod this very much. and i ank you for being with me on the journal. >> thank you >> thank y. >> thank you. >> moys: you heard serene jones y her students at union theological hung to make a difference, and that many themill go forth to work for a better society on its margin- amonthe poor in churches, clinics, shelters ansoup

kitchens, where theologyroves its relevance, or reveals s impotence. wh she said prompted us to revisit some people we metarly last year, ikitchens and food banks, where t hunger was literal and growing,ven before the financial collap in the fall. it w 15 months ago, and we began our repo just north of new york city,n westchester county, one of the ten wealthiest counties in ameri. few blocks from westchester' lovely homes and manicured lawns, at new chelle's hope community serviceswe found voluntee struggling to help peopleesperately in need of their daily bread;eople like rosabee walker. >> i was a very indendent woman. you couldn't g me to come stand in le to get no food free from nobody. because i was always ud to working d taking care of self. the first job i d was 16, i was e section hand on the railroad durg the second world war. i worked in e steel mills in pennsylvania. when i came to new york, did

hoework because that's all women t in new york was domestic day work. i work in the laundry. then, i managed the laundrom. d work right now-- even thou m over 80, i'd go take care somebody that's 75 or 80 and stay with them in their home and get paid fort. i don't like lazy. but then i got down to t place where i was retired. money. >> hi, rosable! >> no income coming . >> thank you. >> heryou go. and finally, in desperation i said, "well,f everybody else can go get it, i will, t." come on, matilda. >>nd that's what started me to coming to the pantry. >> good morning, sir. how are you? >> yup. gotcha. >> i lost my j because of defee cutbacks. thank you very much. >> you hava good day. >> youtoo. thank you. and i've been looking aroun here for jobs. i want to work. i want to provide for mylf. i alwa did. ishe coming back?

>> i've been doing that sinci was 18. ani don't like this. not at all. >> here yogo. >> thanks. >> have a good day. >> you, too. >> i w once told by a man that if he ever g in my position that he'd hopeomebody would sht him. and i said, "tt's pretty extrem" because 's not that i'm just laying bacand i'm lazy. i worked my whole li. i supported four children, d then i had gotten sick. and these are the positions that people don't reali. >> wheyou think of food pantries, you think of the homeless. you think of shelters. you think of substance ase. you think of jt outright people whore down and out. but now the faces have chang. 're short on fresh vegetable the is... we have onions... >> moyers:everend melony

samuels directthe bed-stuy campgn against hunger. >> you want so canned vegetabl? now, we are seeing more families, mothers wi children, working famies coming in. we're seei people that have gruated from high school, people w are making a fairly good income. but theyave told us over and over again that the cost ofood isnbelievable. the cost of living, fiing housing, that s pushed them into food pantries, d they n't only come to this od ntry, but they go to several food pantries, trying to s if they accumulate enou food for a ek. one cereal, ead... the food bank is n delivering as ty used to. wetill get a weekly delivery, and metimes it is so aringly. it's unbelievable, when you e extly what comes off the truck. you're disappointed. people are disappointed, becse once the tru drives up, then the neighborhood knows, and ey start cong. they are coming cause they figure food is here.

a chiltold me a story recently, d she said, "well, when my mother prepares od, we get su a small amount. but then there is someeft and i would asfor more, and she would ll me, 'you cannot have anymore, bause what is left is for tomorrow, and if you e it today, you wl go hungry tomoow.'" >>oyers: the city's food paries and soup kitchensely on t food bank for new york ci to supply much of the food they give out. but now, thiresource is drying up. >> we used to ha a lot of vegetables, a t of protein, a lot beans, pasta. those items haveasically disappeared. >> moyers: tyrone harringh is the od bank's chief operating officer. >> i have never seen this all e time that i've been here. this year is essential the wot in terms of the food ortage that we have seen. there used to be aisleand aisles of food.

>> i am on a fixed iome. and i have to live on social security check alone. i have no other come. when i have to go toy primary doctor, i have co-pay. when i get my medicinevery month, i have a co-pay. plus my living eenses, and with all of combined, when i get check on the third of the month, by the 7th, i have nothing. >> i ud to be able to buy anything i wanted. i had every credit carknown to man. and i had plenty of money ery week. and i'd buy the be meats, the best vegetables, theest this and that now, they give me hoogs or something-- i cookhem. i get peanut butte crackers, and thgs. and sotimes, i'll get a can of beef stew something like that, ansome... or maybe a can soup and i use those things ani eat it.

but e foods i'm eating are simple foods. a lot of them are poor man food. i was used to that when i s a kid, and i've gotten back to that. >> tonht, we're having hot dogs and scalloped potats and getables because that's what wead available today. >> moyers: anne carey-colora directs the hope community services foopantry and soup tchen. >> if a parent can't putood on the table to feetheir childrenand their children go school hungry, the parent feels worthless. and that impts on your ability to fction on a daily basis. it impacts oyour children's ability to perfo at school. or if you can't feed yrself and take care of yourself, is very hard toeel good about yoself. and we're glad to see you ba. you haven't be here in awhile. a long time, yeah. >> a couple of months? a ar ago in the kitchen, on a nightly basis, we'd ha

anywhere fm 50 to 75 people. now, wre averaging anywhere from 85 to 120 a night. last thanksgiving, in the kitchen a year agowe had 150 peop in for dinner; this year, we had 225 previously, it was primarily singles, whether its siors or adults w, the number ofamilies has incrsed. >> for a while, i was ve cynical. i looked down my nosat a lot of peopl but now, i'm o of those people that i lood down on. and i don't look down on anybody anymore. i went to the supermarket, and i left theupermarket and didn't buy anything beuse... theyad hamburger-- there wasn't a package of haurger in the whole meathing that was less than $4. no of it! and every week you gto the market to buy food, they up e

price, up the price, up e price, but nobody's uppi nobody's salary. right now, at homen my house, my check is cong tomorrow to goarketing with. i t two halves of a green pepper in myreezer, period. no food-i got some canned goods on the shelf-- no foodn the house. no money to go buy it. that's the condition. and if there was no pantri, you would find a lot ous uldn't even have a green pepper in the freezer. >> moyers: that waapril 2008. every place we vited then tells usow that, since the nancial meltdown last fall, the need has deepened dramatically. that bed-stuy caaign against nger in brooklyn was helping 6,000 people a mth when we were the; now, it's serving ,000. th's an increase of more than %. folks atope community services in new rochelle report 45% increase.

rosabelle walker, now years old, sll goes there. but now, sheives what she gets to other people in her blding. that's because two wen from the onx who saw our report to ms. walker under their wing and have been helping t ever since. shs a rare good news story. we've checked aroundhe country: mountleasant, texas; coviton, louisiana; detroit, denver-- a report more and re mouths to feed. in philadelphi bill clark, who runs the large food bank there, told the nquirer" that many new people are coming "terrozed," "in shock," mbarrassed" to be asking for handout. meanwhile, it was reportedast week thaour government will spend $835illion this year on the economic bailout. the masters of finance w brought on thidisaster seem not whit embarrassed at handts of such magnitude. the ly counter to such unrepentant avare is public opinion fired byoral coiction. there's wherthe collective

por of faith might yet signify. many issues vide our religious traditions. but suppose theyame together on this one use, to put right what's wrong wh a system where people must turn to chary becae they can't count on justice. that's the hrt of the social goel taught at union seminary, and that'sheadical message we anticipate heing in a few days when pope benedicreleases a major encyclical, letter to his bishops, tim to next week's smit of the g-8 industrialed nations in italy. the pe has already spoken on some of these issues. back in februa, he said, "it is t church's duty to denounce the fundental errors that have now been realed in the llapse of the major american banks." the market economy, he has sd, "can only be recogzed as a way ofconomic and civil progress if it is orited to the common good," including aairer distribution of resources d power. when the pope's new encyclic is issued, we ll link you to itn our web site. log to pbs.orgnd click on

"bill moyers joual." you'll also fi there lectures by cornel we, gary dorrien, and serene jones. that's it for the urnal. we'll beere again next week. i'm bill moyers. caioning sponsored by public affairs televisn caioned by mediaccess group at wgbh access.wh.org

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News/Business. (2009) Scholars Cornel West, Serene Jones and Gary Dorrien examine what America's core ethics and values say about the nation's politics and policy. New. (CC) (Stereo)

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